Azeroth Wars Geography Feedback

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Dave_Rolf
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Azeroth Wars Geography Feedback

1 month ago

This is the thread where you post feedback related to terrain and the other things related to it. Focused on making the map more accurate in terms of geography, lore while also making it fun to play and competitively balanced.

I'll personally write big geography related posts in this thread.

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Dave_Rolf
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Re: Azeroth Wars Geography Feedback

1 month ago

Northrend Geography Feedback

So the entire continent of Northrend have remained almost entirely unchanged for the last 5 years. It’s remained unchanged due to many reasons but not because it was perfect. The continent is highly inaccurate in many zones and the primary reason has been the lack the space available. Now that the entire map have been expanded we’ve seen more dungeons added and seen Outland been expanded.

Time for Northrend to get the same treatment. There’s a lot of exciting possibilities here. Now I am going to make Azjol Nerub into a entirely separate post as that dungeon is a whole different challenge. Nothing in AWlr Azjol Nerub is similar to any real maps of Azjol Nerub.

First, let’s start of with some detailed maps. I’ve taken a screenshot from Awlr version 1.85 of Northrend and I am showing you two WoW maps. One WoW map is painted and the other one is the real world from a very zoomed out position.
The Northrend version in 1.85 have some slight differences in that Icecrown Glacier does not have a harbor and there’s a doodad rock passage instead. There’s also no tiny islands of the coast either. Apart from those minor details, it’s all the same. I am not the editor thus I am not allowed to open up the map versions 2.07-08.

Let’s compare some of the differences between AWlr map and WoW map

Major differences

1. Howling Fjords down at the bottom right have a much thicker ocean-river going up in Awlr while it looks much more like a regular river in WoW. Big difference in thickness.
2. The Drak’Tharon keep region is completely off and the water surrounding it is very inaccurate.
3. The giant lake right next to Dragonblight does not exist and have replaced the zone Wintergrasp.
4. Location of the Icecrown Citadel within the Icecrown Glacier zone.
5. AWlr does not have Ulduar which exists in the northern part of Storm Peaks.
6. Hrothgar’s Landing island does not exist above Northrend.

Minor differences

1. Scarlet Onslaught island. Small island entirely populated with bitter Scarlet Crusade army off the coast of Icecrown Glacier.
2. Ocean river going into Grizzly Hills on the east side is far too thick, barely exists in WoW.
3. Storm Peaks zone ending further north than Icecrown Glacier (without Ulduar). Should be flatline on where it ends.
4. Microscopic islands of the coast of Borean Tundra and some more islands of the coast of Howling Fjords does not exist in AWlr Northrend.


Suggestions

1. Expand the map further north, move Icecrown Glacier zone further up North, create a water passage portal to get past Icecrown Glacier and Storm Peaks. This will enable more space for Wintergrasp zone.

2. Create Ulduar island zone with bridge to Storm Peaks to the northeast. Thick mountain walls and can’t be landed onto by ships. No dungeon, got a 10g/min control point.

3. Create Hrothgar’s Landing island to the northwest of Icecrown Glacier with 10g/min control point.

4. Create the zone Wintergrasp. Remove the big lake. If you move Icecrown Glacier further north and expand the coastline a bit more south then there’s enough space for this zone. 10g/min control point and capturable building.

5. Reterrain Coldarra island, make the area bigger for units and less mountain, add a 10g/min control point.

6. Move blue Drak’Tharon base north into west Zul’Drak / eastern Crystalsong Forest where Red Graveyard and Ziggurat is. The Drak’Tharon building is on the same location, just the rest of the base moves north of it.

7. Accurately create the terrain where Drak’Tharon blue base used to be with troll creep camp and also Venture Bay. Venture Bay is pirate and goblin zone in WoW and would be nice location to provide goblin services.

8. The Forgotten Coast in Dragonblight, which is where reds transport ships currently is located in Northrend should be the new location for blue harbor + navy. Where blue navy is now should be made into Venture Bay with goblin shop, laboratory and merchant.

9. Block the sea passage into the river of Howling Fjords and make the river small.

10. Remove the river going into Grizzly Hills from the east side, replace with more landmass. Barely exists in WoW.

11. Create a big gate into Icecrown Glacier. This is the famous ‘Wrathgate’. This is one of the most well known gates in WoW. 5000hp and 10 armor.

12. The undead graveyard, 2 ghouls and ziggurat that was above Drak’Tharon keep gets moved into new red base location in eastern Dragonblight. See Naxxramas on the map. Add a normal Necropolis to the base.

13. Create a medium sized undead base in northeast Borean Tundra. Look up Temple City of En’Kilah. Add the red undead navy here. Add a Halls of the Dead in the base.


Buildings

Create capturable building Wintergrasp Fortress. Grants 8 armor aura to all buildings on entire Northrend.

Create capturable building Ulduar. Grants the ability to globally reveal the map.

Create capturable building Wrathgate. Is the gate into Icecrown Glacier.

Discussion
In short, this buffs Red and Blue defenses, economy and control in Northrend. It also makes the continent bigger and more accurate to the what you would see of Northrend at the Warcraft 3 timeline.

After Outland got expanded not long ago you saw an increase in the amount of creeps and zones. Now you have Shattrath City, Shadowmoon Valley and Kil’Sorrow Fortress control points. The amount of gold Outland grants you have increased from being 130 for most of its time to being a total of 180g/min. This is the same amount that Northrend gives (with Azjol Nerub excluded). It is quite ridiculous that Northrend which is a lot bigger and shared by two players should give as much gold as a smaller continent controlled by one player.

By adding Coldarra, Ulduar, Winterspring and Hrothgar’s Landing control points you boost the economy of Northrend from 180 to at least 220g/min. This is only fair since North Alliance in Eastern Kingdoms have seen their economies increase as well. Purple used to have 110g/min and now he starts with 145g/min. Green used to have only 80g/min from Quel + Zul’Aman and now gets 115g/min. The possibility of having more gold income added to NA is there, since Silverpine Forest doesn't really exist as a zone and western part of Lordaeron is far weaker than eastern part of Lordaeron. This makes the western side always the part you abandon and leave to die if Purple must choose.

We don’t see Scourge doing a comeback invasion after losing his Plague event and Scholomance because at that point his economy is so much weaker compared to NA that it becomes impossible. Twisted Nether + Azjol Nerub + Northrend gives a total of 265g/min. That’s not enough to fight back, it’s barely enough to withstand an invasion in Northrend.

The general trend has now been to increase the amount of gold income a faction have at his disposal due to the way it affects gameplay. The gameplay gets longer wars, more units and more strategic variety when you can afford more.

I have not been talking about Azjol Nerub because I am saving it for another post later. I think the zone should be completely revamped, have the portals reduced from 5 to 4 and contain more zones. Inner Kingdom, Old Kingdom and Upper Kingdom could be the zones.

In the Azjol Nerub post I'm making I'll suggest increasing the income a lot, maybe doubling it to 50g/min, otherwise people don't care much about it.
northrend map painted.jpg
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northrend map real.jpg (482.17 KiB) Viewed 110 times
AWLR Northrend suggestion 1.png
AWLR Northrend suggestion 1.png (2.2 MiB) Viewed 110 times
AWLR Northrend.png
AWLR Northrend.png (2.12 MiB) Viewed 110 times
Last edited by Dave_Rolf 4 weeks ago, edited 3 times in total.

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Talinn
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Re: Azeroth Wars Geography Feedback

4 weeks ago

Hrothgar's Landing and Coldarra could be new zones, I think that'd be cool. Fleshing out islands can always be a good thing.

Wintergrasp was described as a lake in early Wc3 manuals, hence it should stay a lake since AWLR starts at the start of wc3.

Same thing with Sholazaar Basin, the Scourge were able to connect Icecrown and Sholazaar Basin because the pylons were disrupted around the time of WotLK.

Same thing with Angrathar the Wrathgate. It is implied that this was construted along with various other fortifications after Illidan just walked in and started going after the Obelisks. Further, the depiction of Northrend changed somewhat from Wc3 to WotLK , from a barren wasteland with exposed Scourge settlements to a barren wasteland with colorful other life (Sholazaar Basin, Grizzly Hills) along with Morder-esque fortifications. The stuff that looks like Mordor is nowhere to be found in WC3 and this includes the wrathgate.

Ulduar is in an odd spot, and shouldn't be included if it can't be loaded onto ships. This reminds me of LTA. All islands in AWLR can be easily loaded onto. This does not fit the aesthetic of AWLR.

If you move Blue's base to the north, it may make it easier for NA to all land there. But the goblin merchant stuff south of his base is interesting.

I frankly don't see a need for any additional Red bases, unless NR is massively expanded but NR only needs slight tweaks, not a full overhaul. I don't even think these bases existed at the time of WC3, especially the Borean Tundra one.

Keep Icecrown harbor, this fits the lore/aesthetic of Illidan's naga arriving in Icecrown. But I do think that Icecrown could be reterrained with the Citadel in the center.

Like the idea of being able to sail north of Northrend.

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Dave_Rolf
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Re: Azeroth Wars Geography Feedback

4 weeks ago

We've already left the boat on how Warcraft described it's geography and gone 90% with how it looks in WoW so saying that Sholazar Basin and Wintergrasp was very different in Warcraft 3 compared to WoW and should thus remain is not convincing. That logic would have been solid if we applied that logic to all places, but most of it looks like WoW geography.

Take entire Northrend as the best example, in Warcraft 3 it was very thin and long and in WoW they made the continent more round and thick. If you go back to version 1.41 which is like 9 years ago then you would see the old version of Northrend. The terrain we have now is 90% based on WoW with a lot of anti-aging cream. So making arguments based on old Warcraft geography is weak here.

Ulduar should be a far up mountain-island that you can't land on from the sea because that's how it is in WoW. It is a really far up place in the mountain. This would make the place be odd, but I think it would be cool to have it be this way with a bridge connecting it to Storm Peaks.

The Borean Tundra Undead base did exist in Warcraft 3. The Temple City of En'Kilah is an old area, it was originally built by the Nerubians. The Naxxramas area where I suggest the smaller undead base did also exist in Warcraft 3, that is the location of where Malganis fought against Arthas wielding Frostmourne in the campaign.

Reason for more bases is because Red have really weak control of Northrend. He's pretty much only got Icecrown Glacier, that is his only place to retreat if he loses a few units. Borean Tundra is also the weakest point in Northrend for a defending Red & Blue.

When it comes to the Wrathgate, yes it was constructed a bit later, but still touching inside the Warcraft 3 timeline and could have even been constructed before the WoW game, we don't really know the exact point of time here. A simple fix is to let the gate start broken in the beginning of the game and make Red players pay to have it constructed. This is also a really weak argument from your standpoint because the Greymane gate into Gilneas did not get constructed until they were informed about the plague which happens 8 minutes into the game yet it exists at the start.

Talinn, you defend the harbor in Icecrown Glacier based upon the geographically inaccurate maps of the Warcraft 3 campaign. If we should go with that, then we should let the entire Frozen Throne be surrounded by sea since that's how it's shown in the campaign, the cinematics and the menu screen. You could also argue that the Naga water is the water you see in Crystalsong Forest in WoW that is right next to the citadel. I go against the harbor based on the WoW geography and based upon gameplay balancing.

Red players almost never use the Icecrown Glacier harbor.

Why?
1. It doesn't have any ships there.
2. It is much further away from all locations you want to go to.
3. Your navy is located in Dragonblight.
4. You are not Stormwind, you cannot retreat from Icecrown Glacier like Dark Green can. Lose Icecrown Glacier and it's over.

Most of the time it is only a weak point in the defense of Northrend where players can surprise land inside his base and teleport in more units. It's also a place easy for Green Naga to surprise invade from. This harbor serves a lot more as a weakness than a strength. Removing the harbor would buff Icecrown Glacier defenses.

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Dave_Rolf
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Re: Azeroth Wars Geography Feedback

3 weeks ago

Azjol Nerub Feedback

It is currently garbage tier zone. It is a horrible design. This zone have so much potential for gameplay, factions and lore.

After trying a couple of iterations I eventually came up with this map concept you see now.

Multiple reasons why Azjol Nerub should be revamped.
1. The portals are very confusing at the moment
2. It's a boring zone that could have more and will have more if Ahn'Qiraj & old gods stuff gets added. I also suggest Dwarves base event.
3. Better defenses for Icecrown Glacier from dangerous tunnel invasions, can also control the network with the gates
4. Increasing the economy of Northrend
5. Protecting Drak'Tharon from a surprise attack with the Forgotten One and Icecrown Glacier with an Undead base.

The Yellow and the Grey base are whatever you have plans for in the future, just giving the zones enough space to include it if you ever wanted to in the future.
By removing the Borean Tundra portal and adding a Storm Peaks / Ulduar portal you get a perfect portal entrace square on Northrend.
Which is similar to the portal square you see on the concept map. Makes portal traveling less confusing.
Azjol Nerub concept.png
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